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Podcast Episode 7: Benefits of Being Present | Mindfulness with Emily Hornsby and Cathy Wright

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In this episode, we chat with Emily Hornsby, NCHPAD’s Mindfulness Curriculum Coordinator, and Cathy Wright about the power of mindfulness. Both Emily and Cathy come from a legal background and share how mindfulness transformed their personal and professional lives. They break down what mindfulness really means, how it differs from meditation, and offer practical tips for weaving it into everyday life.

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Episode Transcript

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Intro
What drew them to mindfulness and how it has helped them in their personal life
New to mindfulness? Here’s how they define mindfulness in simple terms
How does mindfulness differ from meditation?
In a world full of distractions and constant noise, here are some simple ways to add mindfulness into your daily routine
Common misconceptions about mindfulness
Secondary benefits of mindfulness
Should I stick to a schedule for mindfulness or should it be when I feel like you need it?
Emily and Cathy’s final thoughts

*Edited for clarity*

Host

0:01

This is Wellness, Health and Everything Else: a NCHPAD Podcast.

Welcome to Wellness, Health and Everything Else: a NCHPAD Podcast. NCHPAD is the National Center on Health, Physical Activity and Disability – the nation’s premier center dedicated to promoting the health and wellness of everyone. In each episode, we’re exploring topics at the intersection of health, wellness and mobility limitations. If you have an idea for a topic, would like to learn more about a topic, or are interested in our free resources, programs and partnership opportunities, email us at nchpad@uab.edu, give us a call at 866-866-8896 or check out our website at nchpad.org.

Music Interlude

In this episode, we’re talking with NCHPAD Mindfulness Curriculum Coordinator Emily Hornsby and Cathy Wright about mindfulness. Emily and Cathy both have a similar background, having practiced law. The two share their stories about how mindfulness has had a positive impact on their lives and how it can benefit anyone. They also discussed mindfulness in simple terms, ways to incorporate it into daily life, the differences between mindfulness and meditation, and more. Here are Emily and Cathy discussing their personal and professional backgrounds.

Emily

01:23

Well, I am the mindfulness curriculum coordinator with the National Center for Health, Physical Activity and Disability, and I teach mindfulness in the MENTOR program. And I started doing that in January of 2024. But prior to that, in my prior life, I was a personal injury lawyer, and I represented individuals who’d been hurt or killed in all kinds of accidents. I did that for about 25 years and I kind of wanted a change in my career. I had been into mindfulness for a while, and this position opened up here at UAB to teach, so I’ve been doing that for the past year and a half or so.

Cathy

02:14

Yeah, so, it’s interesting how Emily and I met because it turns out we both practiced law. I was a lawyer here in Birmingham for 25 years doing general business litigation. And then I ended up starting a business that I ran here for about 15 years. And I’ve been involved in mindfulness for most of my adult life. But the way Emily and I met, we both were trained by Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield to be mindfulness teachers. That’s where we got our certifications. And we were both at a retreat that was part of our requirement to get our certificate. And we sat down at the same table, and it turned out we were both from Birmingham. We were both lawyers. I recruited Emily into the MENTOR program. That’s one of my proudest accomplishments.

Emily

03:17

Yeah, that’s a great story. And so ironic that we met way out in California at a retreat, a silent retreat, actually. But Cathy is who actually wrote the curriculum for the mindfulness portion of the MENTOR program. She’s the author and director and had a big hand in the program and she has been a mentor to me throughout my mindfulness career. And it just so happened through the universe working in mysterious ways that we met. And I was telling Cathy out in California or after that, that I’m a little burned out with law. I would love to teach mindfulness on a more permanent level. And she said, well, do I have something for you? And it’s just been wonderful ever since to be able to teach to individuals here at the center, our participants who have a disability. It’s a joy.

Host

04:20

Emily and Cathy discussed what drew them to mindfulness and how it has helped them on a personal level.

Emily

04:26

Well, I think for most people, going through a hardship in your life or some difficult, challenging time can wake you up to maybe what’s important in life. So, rewind back to about 2012, I was practicing law and my husband at the time was in an alcohol treatment center out of state, and we had been dealing with the disease of alcoholism in our family for many years. And I had been invited to a family weekend out at the alcohol treatment center, inpatient center. And so I went, and they introduced meditation to the loved one of the alcoholic and yoga. And they talked a lot about self-care and what it means to put the spotlight on the loved one of the alcoholic. Because many times, as many of you know, the alcoholic pretty much gets a lot of the spotlight. So, they talked about the loved one of the alcoholic really taking care of themselves. And that was the first time or really it dawned on me that I need to start taking care of myself. And so, after that weekend, I really enjoyed the meditations that we did, and they resonated with me.

So, I went online and took a course with Deborah King, who’s a meditation teacher. I took a little course and learned how to meditate with her. And then it just kind of catapulted me into what I’ll call a spiritual journey from that point forward. And I started meditating and doing yoga. And I’d always exercised in my life, but yoga connected me with the mind, body and spirit in a way that regular exercise had not. And so, it was a difficult time for me and for my family because of the uncertainty of what was going to happen. Was my husband going to get better? How is this going to affect the children? How am I going to survive financially? Because I had a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old at the time and really was a single parent that summer. So anyway, I continued to meditate and do yoga. And then I eventually wanted to teach it to the legal profession. And so, I began doing continuous legal education seminars to the legal profession about mindfulness and health and wellness because our profession needs that a great deal. And then I took this two-year course that Cathy was referring to, the two-year mindfulness certification course. So how it’s helped me in my personal life is…It has helped me and continues to help me ride the waves of life, the external circumstances that we all face in life, many of which we cannot control, but we can control how we relate to those external circumstances. So, it has helped me to relate to stress, stressful events, challenging events and challenging times in life with a little bit more peace, ease and equanimity. And it also has helped me, I think, to be kinder to myself. It’s allowed me to get to know myself better and my tendencies and my habits and to befriend myself and be a friend to myself. It’s not that I don’t get stressed out or anxious. We all get stressed and anxious. We’re all human. But the practice shows up in those times if you practice it regularly. And it provides some peace and ease that you can ride those waves a little bit better.

Cathy

08:56

Yeah, it is a common theme that often what draws people to some kind of practice like this in the first place comes out of some kind of hardship. In my case, I grew up in the military. I went to 14 schools before I graduated from high school. Both my parents were alcoholics, and my dad had a severe TBI from a service-related event, and it was pretty chaotic. So, my path to meditation was a little bit winding. It started out with martial arts and the discipline involved in that and the clarity and focus. And then I took a lot of different kinds of training in the meditation space and then ended up becoming an Enneagram teacher. [I] was really fortunate to have Helen Palmer as my original teacher. And that has a very strong meditation and mindfulness component to it as well. And then, as Emily mentioned, I wound up after, actually after I sold my business, I wound up joining the first class that Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield taught to certify mindfulness as teachers. That was called MMTCP. I don’t remember exactly what that stands for, but it’s based on a program they have called the Power of Awareness, which is for general awareness distribution, which is a wonderful way to think about mindfulness. And so, it’s been kind of a long journey, but it’s been really, really important to me in my life. It’s helped me in so many different ways.

I think what Emily talked about, learning to befriend yourself and be kind to yourself is so bedrock, and it’s especially bedrock to the way we teach in the MENTOR program. In the first class, we always [taught], I always said it this way, I only have two rules for this program. This is the first rule. Rule number one: be kind to yourself, be kind to yourself, be kind to yourself. And it changes everything. And this is, I think, maybe the biggest feedback we get from participants in the program is how much learning to give themself some grace, to be kind to themselves, makes them more peaceful and at ease, and also makes it easier to be with other people as well and to be kind to other people. And then, so that’s rule number one. Rule number two is to remember rule number one. And that’s because it’s a practice, you build it by practicing. One of the things that I think has really been great about the MENTOR program is we’ve really based our program not only on traditional meditation or mindfulness practices but also on the neuroscience that supports it. And what we know from all the great work that’s emerging in that field is that the real strength, the way we change our brains is when we forget and then remember to come back. That’s where we are really building the new neural pathways. So that one is a huge one. And, after working with it all this time, I still forget. And then I have to remember. And then I remember everything. That’s how I get there by bringing myself back. So that’s a lot of it.

I really think it’s important to, and I echo what Emily says about how building a mindfulness practice allows us to surf through the difficulties of life. And Emily’s aware that the last year and a half, almost two years, well, a year and a half for me have been really tough. I had some health problems. My husband was in a really terrible automobile accident, and we almost lost him several times. He’s fortunately doing pretty well now. And it was just a really rough year. And then as things continued in the last two weeks, my husband fell and ended up in the emergency room. He’s okay. My mother-in-law died and I have COVID. And when I look at the situation, I realize this practice has become so bedrock. And because now it’s been a lot of years, it’s become so bedrock to me. I almost don’t notice sometimes how much I’m able to come back to being grounded, to come back to finding some kind of peace and ease, and how much it’s helped to build nervous system regulation. It’s still a practice. I still have to come back to it over and over again. And like Emily says, there [are] days when I just don’t know, if I’m going to get through it sometimes, but still the practice supports me. Even now when I don’t even know it. But you don’t have to [have] decades of practice because all the research shows that even what we’re teaching, an eight-week program, can start to lay down that basis in literally changing your brain so you can go back to finding a place that is more comfortable where you feel more in control. Not in control of life because that’s not in the cards, but how you can manage your response.

Host

15:50

For someone who is new to mindfulness and doesn’t think it’s for them, Emily and Cathy provided mindfulness in simple terms.

Emily

15:57

Well, the way my teacher Tara Brach defined it is paying attention moment to moment to what is going on inside you and around you without judging what’s going on inside you and around you. So basically, being in the present moment with whatever you’re doing is what mindfulness is. And the [reason] that is helpful is the research shows that most of the time we are not thinking about what we’re doing in the present moment. Our minds are wandering. We can be talking in a conversation with someone and we’re thinking about our response, or we’re thinking about dinner, or we’re thinking about what we’re going to do when this is over. And we’re not there. We’re not in the now. We’re not in the present moment. The research interestingly shows that we’re the happiest when we are focusing on what we’re doing in the present moment. So, for about half the time, we’re not focusing on what we’re doing, and we’re not as happy. So, [with] this practice of mindfulness, the practice is coming back to the present moment. So, if you are listening to me talk right now and you have a hundred percent awareness [of] what I am saying [at] this moment and then your mind starts to wander, it’s the moment you realize my mind is now wandering. I’m now thinking about something coming up in the future, or I’m thinking about something that happened in the past. Ah, I’m now aware of that. I’m now conscious of that. So now I have a choice. I can continue thinking that, or I can let it go and come back to this podcast and back to listening to me on this podcast. So, it’s the recognition that your mind has wandered. And then bringing your mind and your attention back to the present moment. That’s what mindfulness is.

Cathy

18:25

I think Emily gave a great definition of what mindfulness is. And I’ll just add, not to the definition, but to the experience. There [are] so many things in the moment to be happy about or joyful about or appreciate or grateful for. And so many times just coming back and noticing what’s around you. Noticing the environment that you’re in or seeing a flower or seeing somebody you love or anything at all just [at] that moment really changes your chemistry in your body. So, once you get a taste for that, the idea of realizing that you’ve sort of wandered off into the past, or your worries, or whatever, is not nearly as entertaining as enjoying what’s right there in the moment. That is when you start to live in a present-moment state and the more you can do that the more mindful you can be. What I like to tell people about how you do that is we all know what that experience is like. That “being in the flow.” Everybody’s heard that expression, but mostly what we do in life is what I refer to as waiting for the flow bus to come around. And when it happens, it happens and that’s cool, but we don’t cultivate it, but we can. And the more you can cultivate it, the more you can be in that state more often, and with that comes so many benefits.

Emily

20:33

Yeah, Cathy, what you said reminds me of this quote. This old Indian guru was asked, “Why do you practice mindfulness?” And he said, “So when I walk from here to the village each day, I can observe the tiny purple flowers along the way.” And that’s what mindfulness helps us all to do. It’s to observe the tiny purple flowers, whatever those are for you. And coming back to the present moment allows you to do that. There’s so much depth in the present moment if we’ll just train ourselves to practice being in it more often.

Host

21:14

We asked how mindfulness differs from meditation or if they always go hand in hand.

Emily

21:20

Well, meditation is really just a more formal practice of mindfulness. Meditation is a doorway, a portal through which you can be more mindful in your everyday life. But what meditation is, is simply finding a time to be by yourself and sitting in the midst of your experience in that moment, whatever it is. If it’s grief, if it’s sadness, if it’s excitement, if it’s boredom, if it’s restlessness, [or] the commitment to stay with whatever is surfacing and whatever comes into your awareness. That is what meditation is. You can focus on an anchor in meditation. We many times need an anchor to come back to, to return to. And that for many people is the breath. But for many people, the breath may not work. So, you can focus on imagery, or your sensations in your hands or feet, or a mantra. But you need an anchor. And so, when your mind wanders, and it will, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when, you bring yourself back to your anchor, your breath, or other anchor. And it’s the very coming back that begins to retrain your brain. Begins to create new neural pathways towards happiness and joy because you’re coming back to the present moment. And we know through neuroscience that they’ve put MRI machines on the brains of meditators and found that the part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, that’s where empathy, sense of reasoning, sense of self, executive functioning resides, that that part of the brain gets more blood flow when we meditate. And the limbic part, that old part where fight, flight, or freeze resides, where many of us spend a lot of our time in stress and anxiety, that does not get as much blood flow or any blood flow when we meditate. So, we’re in essence evolving our brain [in] real-time by coming back to the present moment. And it’s like our teachers, Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach, said: it’s like training a puppy. You don’t berate the puppy. You don’t yell at the puppy. You’re very kind and compassionate but firm with the puppy and guiding the puppy where you want the puppy to go. And that’s the same thing with meditation and mindfulness. Whenever we do become aware that our mind has wandered off in thought, we’re not going to be frustrated with ourselves or angry with ourselves or berate ourselves. We’re just going to say, “Ah, I am now aware that I am lost in thought and I’m going to bring myself back to the present moment with kindness and compassion.” Self-compassion is a huge piece of mindfulness. It’s really the second wing of mindfulness, the first wing being awareness and then self-compassion. And as Tara Brach said, you need them both to fly. So that’s a little bit of the difference in my view.

Cathy

24:59

Yeah, I think, thank you, Emily. I think that’s a really great way to think about it. One of the things I’d like to remind people is that the point is to be able to be mindful in your life. To live your life from a mindful space. I always said to our classes that this is not about teaching you to be a great meditator. That’s not the point. The point is to be able to go through your life in the ways that we’re talking about, [which is] more peaceful, more at ease, more choice, which I think is important. And how [do] you get there? Well, practice is how you get there. And there’s a lot of different ways, as Emily was saying. For some people it’s martial arts. For some people it’s yoga.

There [are] so many different kinds of meditation practices that can do the kind of thing that we’re talking about. But that is like the learning [or] the building. And when you can, just like Emily’s Indian guru, walk to the village and notice the purple flowers. That’s mindfulness. And it reminds me, I’ll sort of paraphrase Alice Walker, who wrote something like, it kind of makes God mad when you walk by the color purple and don’t even notice. And so, the idea that we can actually be there for those moments, that’s mindfulness.

Host

26:47

In a world full of distractions and constant noise, Emily and Cathy provide some simple ways you can incorporate mindfulness into your daily routine.

Emily

26:55

Well, I think just pausing during the day, taking a mindful pause, and really just getting quiet. Taking maybe three deep cleansing breaths and just checking in with yourself, befriending yourself. Maybe ask yourself, “What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What do I need?” and just incorporating that into your day. The mindful pause or taking three deep breaths. You can do that on a regular basis. But particularly if you’re feeling anxious or stressed or if you feel you’re getting caught up in some emotion or some repetitive thought pattern. Interrupting a habit is what mindfulness is. So just pausing, creating some distance between those constant thoughts, creating some distance by coming back to the present moment. And the breath is a great portal to the present moment. And it also is a great portal to the body. And, focusing on your internal body and what’s going on, what are you feeling? What sensations are going on internally is very helpful in coming back to the present moment. So, I would just say, mindfully pause during the day, and you can also bring 100% awareness to any activity you’re doing during the day. Washing the dishes, making the bed, taking a walk in nature, bringing your 100% attention to that. And then when your mind starts to wander, and it will, just bringing it back to washing the dishes, brushing your teeth, taking a shower.

Cathy

28:55

One of the things when we started the MENTOR program, we realized that a lot of our participants were not looking for mindfulness training. As we talked about earlier, people end up in these pursuits because something has happened in their lives and they’re looking for some ease or some relief. And we realized that in teaching, we were going to have to be able to reach people who maybe never heard of mindfulness or certainly didn’t know what it was. And one of the things I think is really important to remember is that there’s not a particular way that you have to go about finding this. Different people have different paths. So, it can be as easy as some of the things Emily’s already said, but just being aware of your body. And this is true for people, even if they have limited mobility or limited perception in their body, you can just think about a part of your body as well as feel it or sense it. But getting back in your body is one important way. Being with yourself [and] coming back to that is a really important way. One of my practices is I’m quite a tea drinker, and I try to remember to actually enjoy it. So, for you, if it’s coffee or tea or just a glass of water, take a minute to taste something or smell something or hear something in a very intentional way. I love the three mindful breaths practice. And if I’m going to go into a stressful meeting or something, something I know is going to be difficult. I try to remember to sit and take those three mindful breaths before I launch into it. And sometimes you have to stop in the middle and remember to take three mindful breaths. But there [are] just a whole lot of ways that you can bring yourself into the present without making a huge, big deal out of it.

Host

31:23

Here are some common misconceptions about mindfulness.

Emily

31:25

The first one that comes to my mind is many participants and mentors say, “I just think too much. I can’t practice mindfulness. I can’t do this. I’m no good at this because I think too much or my mind is scattered. It’s going a million places. It’s really hard to do this. And I’m not a good meditator because I think too much.”

I think the misconception is meditation is perceived by some to be this ethereal person sitting underneath a tree and maybe levitating while they’re meditating very peacefully under the clouds and stars. That’s really not what it is. It is the dealing with and relating to all of your emotions, all of your thoughts, the monkey mind that we all have. Thinking, reaching into the future, back into the past, never standing still. That is meditation. And there is no good meditator, anyway. You don’t grade meditation that way, but it’s a practice. And so, thinking that I’m not a good meditator because I think a lot, that is the practice. So that’s one common misconception, I think.

Cathy

32:59

Yeah, that’s certainly a big one. I think people come into MENTOR classes sometimes and there’s a fear around whether these practices are going to interfere with their religious beliefs or their spiritual beliefs, or some people come in and say they don’t really have a religion or something like that, and they don’t want anything to be forced on them. And so, we hear those kinds of things a lot. One of the things that we really want to communicate is that there [are] so many different ways that you can practice this, but it’s not fundamentally religious. It’s a method of, like we’ve been saying, working with your brain. But for people who come from different religious backgrounds, there [are] so many great, for example, Christian leaders who are involved, like Thomas Keating, who was sort of the father of centering prayer, is a good example of it. Thomas Merton is just one of my favorite theologians, Cynthia Bourgeault. There’s not an inconsistency in…this is a method. It’s really not defining what your religious or spiritual beliefs are. That’s up to you. Hopefully clearing your mind, becoming more focused, being more at ease and peace opens you up to whatever your sense of the world is in a way that makes even more space for that. The science is such a big part of it too, for people who are more interested in that thread, all the research is lining up to confirm these practices as being literally physically beneficial for your brain and your body.

Emily

35:17

That reminded me of one other thing about misconceptions. We all have the capability to be in the present moment. So, this practice is available to everyone. And in fact, it is within each of us already. We have it. We were born with it. We will die with it. But what happens, I think, over a lifespan is everybody’s to-do list, and the thousand joys and sorrows of life kind of like get in the way [and] cloud over or cover up what we all have, which is this deep well of peace and ease. So, it’s available in there for all of us we just have to uncover the onion, peel the onion back, and get back to the way we were originally. It’s our birthright; we all have the ability to go inward and be quiet and be present.

Cathy

36:31

I’ll just add one more thing to that, Emily. One of the things I’ve heard from time to time is people might say, “Well, it seems like it’s really selfish or self-centered to take up time thinking about yourself, and being kind to yourself is self-centered or selfish.” And I can see where people might have that reaction when they hear this, but really what we know comes out of finding a practice and becoming more mindful is that you do become more aware of other people, more aware of their feelings, a desire to be kinder to others, more generous, more compassionate, all those things. And so, taking the time to develop yourself actually gives you more ability to interact with others in a kind, loving, and generous way, and also with good boundaries, which is also an important thing for everybody.

Host

37:46

Emily and Cathy also discussed some of the secondary benefits of mindfulness that they typically see with others.

Emily

37:53

I’m just thinking of one example. A participant said the other day in the MENTOR class, she said, “My brother was taking me to a doctor’s appointment, and a car pulled out in front of him. And he got very upset and angry about that. And she did not. And he was like, ‘Well, why aren’t you upset about this? Come join me and be upset with me.’ And she was like, ‘It’s no big deal. You know, things happen. We move through them. We don’t have to get all emotional about them.'” So, I guess what I would say is we’re less reactive. We’re less reactive to life’s circumstances, which actually gives you a lot more choices as to how you show up in life for yourself and others. So, less reactivity would be one benefit that I see.

Cathy

39:02

There’s a lot of research on the potential benefits of meditation or mindfulness practice. And some of them are physiological, [like] less stress. It can have beneficial effects on lowering pain or the perception of pain or management of pain. There’s overall health in these brain changes that Emily talked about, where people’s brains show up as calmer and smoother brain waves. So, there’s a lot of health and feeling good kind of benefits that can potentially come from just engaging. It doesn’t have to be [that you] go somewhere for six months and contemplate. It can be a little bit [that] can take you pretty far if you stick with it.

Emily

40:14

That reminded me of one other thing in that scenario I gave with the car cutting that person off. When that person got upset about that, that created some emotions around it for that individual which relates to stress and anxiety, which is not healthy for our bodies to undergo chronic stress and anxiety. We’re all going to have bouts of stress. We’re human. But mindfulness helps us to move away from chronic stress or chronically being emotionally engaged or upset or anxious much of the time. Many people live their lives in that state. So, mindfulness helps us to move away from that chronic state of stress to more rest, restore, attend and befriend. Which in turn helps our health because we don’t have those emotions that we would otherwise have.

Cathy

41:33

And Emily, on that one, we sure get along better with other people when we’re less reactive and manage our emotions better. And that tends to promote a lot better relationships. And being able to be more clear [for] yourself about where you are with things in a kind and loving way can also be something that really helps us with our relationships.

Host

42:07

We wanted to know if you should stick to a schedule for mindfulness or if it should be when you feel like you need it.

Emily

42:13

I don’t know if the science is clear on whether 20 minutes of meditation in the morning versus several small mindful pauses during the day leads to better benefits. I don’t think we know that exactly. I think we do know, though, that consistency, no matter the length of it, just the consistency of the practice is beneficial. And also doing this practice when things are rocking along pretty well in your life, will help you because your brain will remember “Oh I know how to navigate this because I’ve been doing it.” So, when you do get in those rocky challenging times in your life, it’ll be a habit for you already and so you’ll be able to ride that wave, be more resilient, come back to balance, and ground quicker and easier than if you had not been practicing when things were going along pretty good.

Cathy

43:37

Yeah, I think part of it is people are just wired differently. Some people find that it’s really helpful to have a very… they like structure, they enjoy it, it works for them. There [are] others of, let’s say us, who don’t find structure and routine to be quite as fulfilling as some people do. And so, I always want to encourage people to not let the structure be a barrier. It’s a journey and the more important thing is to stick with it. And what I’ve found is that some people find that in the morning, if they get up and sit for, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, that it makes their whole day go better. Other people find that if they try to do that, they’re just mad at themselves all day because they didn’t get it done. And that’s not helpful. So really, finding what works for you. And there [are] many, many different ways to experiment with that, and if you think about it as an experiment — What works for me for where I am right now? — what we know is it’ll change over time. My own practice tends to come sometimes in longer periods, but a lot of it’s before I get up in the morning, before I even get out of bed, I have a practice that I do most mornings. But sometimes I don’t. Then, at night, one of the things I try to remember as I’m getting ready to fall asleep is to think over my day. To remember what I’m grateful for for that day, to be aware, to be in my body. And sometimes all that’s a few minutes and sometimes it takes some time to go over [and] review my day. I’m going to go back to the beginning. We’re all human. We spend an awful lot of time beating ourselves up and that’s not productive. I mean, obviously, learning better habits, being sorry when we make mistakes or hurt people or whatever are important things to learn to do. But if you’re just constantly beating yourself up about it, that’s not really getting you anywhere. So, I’ll go back to rule number one about being kind to yourself as being the groundwork for developing a meditation practice. And if you don’t do anything else that’s the one to start with.

Host

46:43

Here are Emily and Cathy’s final thoughts.

Emily

46:47

I would just say, I’ve heard it said mindfulness is a thousand new beginnings. And so, every time we return to the present moment, that’s a new beginning. And it really is a moment-to-moment practice. I mean, you can be in the present moment one second and then pulled away forever by the news, by something on your phone [or] social media. And it can carry you…it can hijack you and your emotions can be hijacked, and your thoughts can be hijacked. And now you’re in this alternate reality, thinking about and worrying about things that haven’t happened and probably won’t happen. So like Cathy said, be kind to yourself. If you practice some and then you get away from it, it’s always there for you, always available, always accessible. You just start over. Just begin again and come back to the present moment.

Cathy

47:54

Yeah, and drop all the expectations around it. My first teacher was fond of saying the only reason to meditate is to meditate. And the truth is the benefits kind of sneak up on you. So, I mean, sometimes I guess people have these huge events of enlightenment but that’s not very common. Usually what happens is you get involved in the practice and one day you notice that you didn’t get mad when somebody cut you off in traffic and it’s like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Something goes wrong and you aren’t reactive about it. That’s really what we’re looking for over time. You just do the work in your own way, in your own time. When you forget, and you will, come back. And then over time, what happens is you start to experience yourself in the world in a much more peaceful, easy and kind way. And that’s why we do it.

Host

49:12

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Health and Everything Else. We’ll provide a link with show notes, including full transcripts, links and more, in the podcast description.

If you would like to learn more about mindfulness, you can visit our website in the links provided in the episode details and type in mindfulness in the resources section or visit our YouTube channel for guided mindfulness meditations. If you have questions about our free resources, programs and partnership opportunities, email us at nchpad@uab.edu, call us at 866-866-8896 or check out our website at nchpad.org.

Podcast

Podcast Episode 7: Benefits of Being Present | Mindfulness with Emily Hornsby and Cathy Wright

In this episode, we chat with Emily Hornsby, NCHPAD’s Mindfulness Curriculum Coordinator, and Cathy Wright about the power of mindfulness. Both Emily and Cathy come from a legal background and share how mindfulness transformed their personal and professional lives. They break down what mindfulness really means, how it differs from meditation, and offer practical tips for weaving it into everyday life.

A full episode transcript is available below or on Buzzsprout.

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Where to check out Wellness, Health & Everything Else: A NCHPAD Podcast

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Episode Transcript

Quick Navigation (click the linked text below to jump to a new section)

Intro
What drew them to mindfulness and how it has helped them in their personal life
New to mindfulness? Here’s how they define mindfulness in simple terms
How does mindfulness differ from meditation?
In a world full of distractions and constant noise, here are some simple ways to add mindfulness into your daily routine
Common misconceptions about mindfulness
Secondary benefits of mindfulness
Should I stick to a schedule for mindfulness or should it be when I feel like you need it?
Emily and Cathy’s final thoughts

*Edited for clarity*

Host

0:01

This is Wellness, Health and Everything Else: a NCHPAD Podcast.

Welcome to Wellness, Health and Everything Else: a NCHPAD Podcast. NCHPAD is the National Center on Health, Physical Activity and Disability – the nation’s premier center dedicated to promoting the health and wellness of everyone. In each episode, we’re exploring topics at the intersection of health, wellness and mobility limitations. If you have an idea for a topic, would like to learn more about a topic, or are interested in our free resources, programs and partnership opportunities, email us at nchpad@uab.edu, give us a call at 866-866-8896 or check out our website at nchpad.org.

Music Interlude

In this episode, we’re talking with NCHPAD Mindfulness Curriculum Coordinator Emily Hornsby and Cathy Wright about mindfulness. Emily and Cathy both have a similar background, having practiced law. The two share their stories about how mindfulness has had a positive impact on their lives and how it can benefit anyone. They also discussed mindfulness in simple terms, ways to incorporate it into daily life, the differences between mindfulness and meditation, and more. Here are Emily and Cathy discussing their personal and professional backgrounds.

Emily

01:23

Well, I am the mindfulness curriculum coordinator with the National Center for Health, Physical Activity and Disability, and I teach mindfulness in the MENTOR program. And I started doing that in January of 2024. But prior to that, in my prior life, I was a personal injury lawyer, and I represented individuals who’d been hurt or killed in all kinds of accidents. I did that for about 25 years and I kind of wanted a change in my career. I had been into mindfulness for a while, and this position opened up here at UAB to teach, so I’ve been doing that for the past year and a half or so.

Cathy

02:14

Yeah, so, it’s interesting how Emily and I met because it turns out we both practiced law. I was a lawyer here in Birmingham for 25 years doing general business litigation. And then I ended up starting a business that I ran here for about 15 years. And I’ve been involved in mindfulness for most of my adult life. But the way Emily and I met, we both were trained by Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield to be mindfulness teachers. That’s where we got our certifications. And we were both at a retreat that was part of our requirement to get our certificate. And we sat down at the same table, and it turned out we were both from Birmingham. We were both lawyers. I recruited Emily into the MENTOR program. That’s one of my proudest accomplishments.

Emily

03:17

Yeah, that’s a great story. And so ironic that we met way out in California at a retreat, a silent retreat, actually. But Cathy is who actually wrote the curriculum for the mindfulness portion of the MENTOR program. She’s the author and director and had a big hand in the program and she has been a mentor to me throughout my mindfulness career. And it just so happened through the universe working in mysterious ways that we met. And I was telling Cathy out in California or after that, that I’m a little burned out with law. I would love to teach mindfulness on a more permanent level. And she said, well, do I have something for you? And it’s just been wonderful ever since to be able to teach to individuals here at the center, our participants who have a disability. It’s a joy.

Host

04:20

Emily and Cathy discussed what drew them to mindfulness and how it has helped them on a personal level.

Emily

04:26

Well, I think for most people, going through a hardship in your life or some difficult, challenging time can wake you up to maybe what’s important in life. So, rewind back to about 2012, I was practicing law and my husband at the time was in an alcohol treatment center out of state, and we had been dealing with the disease of alcoholism in our family for many years. And I had been invited to a family weekend out at the alcohol treatment center, inpatient center. And so I went, and they introduced meditation to the loved one of the alcoholic and yoga. And they talked a lot about self-care and what it means to put the spotlight on the loved one of the alcoholic. Because many times, as many of you know, the alcoholic pretty much gets a lot of the spotlight. So, they talked about the loved one of the alcoholic really taking care of themselves. And that was the first time or really it dawned on me that I need to start taking care of myself. And so, after that weekend, I really enjoyed the meditations that we did, and they resonated with me.

So, I went online and took a course with Deborah King, who’s a meditation teacher. I took a little course and learned how to meditate with her. And then it just kind of catapulted me into what I’ll call a spiritual journey from that point forward. And I started meditating and doing yoga. And I’d always exercised in my life, but yoga connected me with the mind, body and spirit in a way that regular exercise had not. And so, it was a difficult time for me and for my family because of the uncertainty of what was going to happen. Was my husband going to get better? How is this going to affect the children? How am I going to survive financially? Because I had a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old at the time and really was a single parent that summer. So anyway, I continued to meditate and do yoga. And then I eventually wanted to teach it to the legal profession. And so, I began doing continuous legal education seminars to the legal profession about mindfulness and health and wellness because our profession needs that a great deal. And then I took this two-year course that Cathy was referring to, the two-year mindfulness certification course. So how it’s helped me in my personal life is…It has helped me and continues to help me ride the waves of life, the external circumstances that we all face in life, many of which we cannot control, but we can control how we relate to those external circumstances. So, it has helped me to relate to stress, stressful events, challenging events and challenging times in life with a little bit more peace, ease and equanimity. And it also has helped me, I think, to be kinder to myself. It’s allowed me to get to know myself better and my tendencies and my habits and to befriend myself and be a friend to myself. It’s not that I don’t get stressed out or anxious. We all get stressed and anxious. We’re all human. But the practice shows up in those times if you practice it regularly. And it provides some peace and ease that you can ride those waves a little bit better.

Cathy

08:56

Yeah, it is a common theme that often what draws people to some kind of practice like this in the first place comes out of some kind of hardship. In my case, I grew up in the military. I went to 14 schools before I graduated from high school. Both my parents were alcoholics, and my dad had a severe TBI from a service-related event, and it was pretty chaotic. So, my path to meditation was a little bit winding. It started out with martial arts and the discipline involved in that and the clarity and focus. And then I took a lot of different kinds of training in the meditation space and then ended up becoming an Enneagram teacher. [I] was really fortunate to have Helen Palmer as my original teacher. And that has a very strong meditation and mindfulness component to it as well. And then, as Emily mentioned, I wound up after, actually after I sold my business, I wound up joining the first class that Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield taught to certify mindfulness as teachers. That was called MMTCP. I don’t remember exactly what that stands for, but it’s based on a program they have called the Power of Awareness, which is for general awareness distribution, which is a wonderful way to think about mindfulness. And so, it’s been kind of a long journey, but it’s been really, really important to me in my life. It’s helped me in so many different ways.

I think what Emily talked about, learning to befriend yourself and be kind to yourself is so bedrock, and it’s especially bedrock to the way we teach in the MENTOR program. In the first class, we always [taught], I always said it this way, I only have two rules for this program. This is the first rule. Rule number one: be kind to yourself, be kind to yourself, be kind to yourself. And it changes everything. And this is, I think, maybe the biggest feedback we get from participants in the program is how much learning to give themself some grace, to be kind to themselves, makes them more peaceful and at ease, and also makes it easier to be with other people as well and to be kind to other people. And then, so that’s rule number one. Rule number two is to remember rule number one. And that’s because it’s a practice, you build it by practicing. One of the things that I think has really been great about the MENTOR program is we’ve really based our program not only on traditional meditation or mindfulness practices but also on the neuroscience that supports it. And what we know from all the great work that’s emerging in that field is that the real strength, the way we change our brains is when we forget and then remember to come back. That’s where we are really building the new neural pathways. So that one is a huge one. And, after working with it all this time, I still forget. And then I have to remember. And then I remember everything. That’s how I get there by bringing myself back. So that’s a lot of it.

I really think it’s important to, and I echo what Emily says about how building a mindfulness practice allows us to surf through the difficulties of life. And Emily’s aware that the last year and a half, almost two years, well, a year and a half for me have been really tough. I had some health problems. My husband was in a really terrible automobile accident, and we almost lost him several times. He’s fortunately doing pretty well now. And it was just a really rough year. And then as things continued in the last two weeks, my husband fell and ended up in the emergency room. He’s okay. My mother-in-law died and I have COVID. And when I look at the situation, I realize this practice has become so bedrock. And because now it’s been a lot of years, it’s become so bedrock to me. I almost don’t notice sometimes how much I’m able to come back to being grounded, to come back to finding some kind of peace and ease, and how much it’s helped to build nervous system regulation. It’s still a practice. I still have to come back to it over and over again. And like Emily says, there [are] days when I just don’t know, if I’m going to get through it sometimes, but still the practice supports me. Even now when I don’t even know it. But you don’t have to [have] decades of practice because all the research shows that even what we’re teaching, an eight-week program, can start to lay down that basis in literally changing your brain so you can go back to finding a place that is more comfortable where you feel more in control. Not in control of life because that’s not in the cards, but how you can manage your response.

Host

15:50

For someone who is new to mindfulness and doesn’t think it’s for them, Emily and Cathy provided mindfulness in simple terms.

Emily

15:57

Well, the way my teacher Tara Brach defined it is paying attention moment to moment to what is going on inside you and around you without judging what’s going on inside you and around you. So basically, being in the present moment with whatever you’re doing is what mindfulness is. And the [reason] that is helpful is the research shows that most of the time we are not thinking about what we’re doing in the present moment. Our minds are wandering. We can be talking in a conversation with someone and we’re thinking about our response, or we’re thinking about dinner, or we’re thinking about what we’re going to do when this is over. And we’re not there. We’re not in the now. We’re not in the present moment. The research interestingly shows that we’re the happiest when we are focusing on what we’re doing in the present moment. So, for about half the time, we’re not focusing on what we’re doing, and we’re not as happy. So, [with] this practice of mindfulness, the practice is coming back to the present moment. So, if you are listening to me talk right now and you have a hundred percent awareness [of] what I am saying [at] this moment and then your mind starts to wander, it’s the moment you realize my mind is now wandering. I’m now thinking about something coming up in the future, or I’m thinking about something that happened in the past. Ah, I’m now aware of that. I’m now conscious of that. So now I have a choice. I can continue thinking that, or I can let it go and come back to this podcast and back to listening to me on this podcast. So, it’s the recognition that your mind has wandered. And then bringing your mind and your attention back to the present moment. That’s what mindfulness is.

Cathy

18:25

I think Emily gave a great definition of what mindfulness is. And I’ll just add, not to the definition, but to the experience. There [are] so many things in the moment to be happy about or joyful about or appreciate or grateful for. And so many times just coming back and noticing what’s around you. Noticing the environment that you’re in or seeing a flower or seeing somebody you love or anything at all just [at] that moment really changes your chemistry in your body. So, once you get a taste for that, the idea of realizing that you’ve sort of wandered off into the past, or your worries, or whatever, is not nearly as entertaining as enjoying what’s right there in the moment. That is when you start to live in a present-moment state and the more you can do that the more mindful you can be. What I like to tell people about how you do that is we all know what that experience is like. That “being in the flow.” Everybody’s heard that expression, but mostly what we do in life is what I refer to as waiting for the flow bus to come around. And when it happens, it happens and that’s cool, but we don’t cultivate it, but we can. And the more you can cultivate it, the more you can be in that state more often, and with that comes so many benefits.

Emily

20:33

Yeah, Cathy, what you said reminds me of this quote. This old Indian guru was asked, “Why do you practice mindfulness?” And he said, “So when I walk from here to the village each day, I can observe the tiny purple flowers along the way.” And that’s what mindfulness helps us all to do. It’s to observe the tiny purple flowers, whatever those are for you. And coming back to the present moment allows you to do that. There’s so much depth in the present moment if we’ll just train ourselves to practice being in it more often.

Host

21:14

We asked how mindfulness differs from meditation or if they always go hand in hand.

Emily

21:20

Well, meditation is really just a more formal practice of mindfulness. Meditation is a doorway, a portal through which you can be more mindful in your everyday life. But what meditation is, is simply finding a time to be by yourself and sitting in the midst of your experience in that moment, whatever it is. If it’s grief, if it’s sadness, if it’s excitement, if it’s boredom, if it’s restlessness, [or] the commitment to stay with whatever is surfacing and whatever comes into your awareness. That is what meditation is. You can focus on an anchor in meditation. We many times need an anchor to come back to, to return to. And that for many people is the breath. But for many people, the breath may not work. So, you can focus on imagery, or your sensations in your hands or feet, or a mantra. But you need an anchor. And so, when your mind wanders, and it will, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when, you bring yourself back to your anchor, your breath, or other anchor. And it’s the very coming back that begins to retrain your brain. Begins to create new neural pathways towards happiness and joy because you’re coming back to the present moment. And we know through neuroscience that they’ve put MRI machines on the brains of meditators and found that the part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, that’s where empathy, sense of reasoning, sense of self, executive functioning resides, that that part of the brain gets more blood flow when we meditate. And the limbic part, that old part where fight, flight, or freeze resides, where many of us spend a lot of our time in stress and anxiety, that does not get as much blood flow or any blood flow when we meditate. So, we’re in essence evolving our brain [in] real-time by coming back to the present moment. And it’s like our teachers, Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach, said: it’s like training a puppy. You don’t berate the puppy. You don’t yell at the puppy. You’re very kind and compassionate but firm with the puppy and guiding the puppy where you want the puppy to go. And that’s the same thing with meditation and mindfulness. Whenever we do become aware that our mind has wandered off in thought, we’re not going to be frustrated with ourselves or angry with ourselves or berate ourselves. We’re just going to say, “Ah, I am now aware that I am lost in thought and I’m going to bring myself back to the present moment with kindness and compassion.” Self-compassion is a huge piece of mindfulness. It’s really the second wing of mindfulness, the first wing being awareness and then self-compassion. And as Tara Brach said, you need them both to fly. So that’s a little bit of the difference in my view.

Cathy

24:59

Yeah, I think, thank you, Emily. I think that’s a really great way to think about it. One of the things I’d like to remind people is that the point is to be able to be mindful in your life. To live your life from a mindful space. I always said to our classes that this is not about teaching you to be a great meditator. That’s not the point. The point is to be able to go through your life in the ways that we’re talking about, [which is] more peaceful, more at ease, more choice, which I think is important. And how [do] you get there? Well, practice is how you get there. And there’s a lot of different ways, as Emily was saying. For some people it’s martial arts. For some people it’s yoga.

There [are] so many different kinds of meditation practices that can do the kind of thing that we’re talking about. But that is like the learning [or] the building. And when you can, just like Emily’s Indian guru, walk to the village and notice the purple flowers. That’s mindfulness. And it reminds me, I’ll sort of paraphrase Alice Walker, who wrote something like, it kind of makes God mad when you walk by the color purple and don’t even notice. And so, the idea that we can actually be there for those moments, that’s mindfulness.

Host

26:47

In a world full of distractions and constant noise, Emily and Cathy provide some simple ways you can incorporate mindfulness into your daily routine.

Emily

26:55

Well, I think just pausing during the day, taking a mindful pause, and really just getting quiet. Taking maybe three deep cleansing breaths and just checking in with yourself, befriending yourself. Maybe ask yourself, “What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What do I need?” and just incorporating that into your day. The mindful pause or taking three deep breaths. You can do that on a regular basis. But particularly if you’re feeling anxious or stressed or if you feel you’re getting caught up in some emotion or some repetitive thought pattern. Interrupting a habit is what mindfulness is. So just pausing, creating some distance between those constant thoughts, creating some distance by coming back to the present moment. And the breath is a great portal to the present moment. And it also is a great portal to the body. And, focusing on your internal body and what’s going on, what are you feeling? What sensations are going on internally is very helpful in coming back to the present moment. So, I would just say, mindfully pause during the day, and you can also bring 100% awareness to any activity you’re doing during the day. Washing the dishes, making the bed, taking a walk in nature, bringing your 100% attention to that. And then when your mind starts to wander, and it will, just bringing it back to washing the dishes, brushing your teeth, taking a shower.

Cathy

28:55

One of the things when we started the MENTOR program, we realized that a lot of our participants were not looking for mindfulness training. As we talked about earlier, people end up in these pursuits because something has happened in their lives and they’re looking for some ease or some relief. And we realized that in teaching, we were going to have to be able to reach people who maybe never heard of mindfulness or certainly didn’t know what it was. And one of the things I think is really important to remember is that there’s not a particular way that you have to go about finding this. Different people have different paths. So, it can be as easy as some of the things Emily’s already said, but just being aware of your body. And this is true for people, even if they have limited mobility or limited perception in their body, you can just think about a part of your body as well as feel it or sense it. But getting back in your body is one important way. Being with yourself [and] coming back to that is a really important way. One of my practices is I’m quite a tea drinker, and I try to remember to actually enjoy it. So, for you, if it’s coffee or tea or just a glass of water, take a minute to taste something or smell something or hear something in a very intentional way. I love the three mindful breaths practice. And if I’m going to go into a stressful meeting or something, something I know is going to be difficult. I try to remember to sit and take those three mindful breaths before I launch into it. And sometimes you have to stop in the middle and remember to take three mindful breaths. But there [are] just a whole lot of ways that you can bring yourself into the present without making a huge, big deal out of it.

Host

31:23

Here are some common misconceptions about mindfulness.

Emily

31:25

The first one that comes to my mind is many participants and mentors say, “I just think too much. I can’t practice mindfulness. I can’t do this. I’m no good at this because I think too much or my mind is scattered. It’s going a million places. It’s really hard to do this. And I’m not a good meditator because I think too much.”

I think the misconception is meditation is perceived by some to be this ethereal person sitting underneath a tree and maybe levitating while they’re meditating very peacefully under the clouds and stars. That’s really not what it is. It is the dealing with and relating to all of your emotions, all of your thoughts, the monkey mind that we all have. Thinking, reaching into the future, back into the past, never standing still. That is meditation. And there is no good meditator, anyway. You don’t grade meditation that way, but it’s a practice. And so, thinking that I’m not a good meditator because I think a lot, that is the practice. So that’s one common misconception, I think.

Cathy

32:59

Yeah, that’s certainly a big one. I think people come into MENTOR classes sometimes and there’s a fear around whether these practices are going to interfere with their religious beliefs or their spiritual beliefs, or some people come in and say they don’t really have a religion or something like that, and they don’t want anything to be forced on them. And so, we hear those kinds of things a lot. One of the things that we really want to communicate is that there [are] so many different ways that you can practice this, but it’s not fundamentally religious. It’s a method of, like we’ve been saying, working with your brain. But for people who come from different religious backgrounds, there [are] so many great, for example, Christian leaders who are involved, like Thomas Keating, who was sort of the father of centering prayer, is a good example of it. Thomas Merton is just one of my favorite theologians, Cynthia Bourgeault. There’s not an inconsistency in…this is a method. It’s really not defining what your religious or spiritual beliefs are. That’s up to you. Hopefully clearing your mind, becoming more focused, being more at ease and peace opens you up to whatever your sense of the world is in a way that makes even more space for that. The science is such a big part of it too, for people who are more interested in that thread, all the research is lining up to confirm these practices as being literally physically beneficial for your brain and your body.

Emily

35:17

That reminded me of one other thing about misconceptions. We all have the capability to be in the present moment. So, this practice is available to everyone. And in fact, it is within each of us already. We have it. We were born with it. We will die with it. But what happens, I think, over a lifespan is everybody’s to-do list, and the thousand joys and sorrows of life kind of like get in the way [and] cloud over or cover up what we all have, which is this deep well of peace and ease. So, it’s available in there for all of us we just have to uncover the onion, peel the onion back, and get back to the way we were originally. It’s our birthright; we all have the ability to go inward and be quiet and be present.

Cathy

36:31

I’ll just add one more thing to that, Emily. One of the things I’ve heard from time to time is people might say, “Well, it seems like it’s really selfish or self-centered to take up time thinking about yourself, and being kind to yourself is self-centered or selfish.” And I can see where people might have that reaction when they hear this, but really what we know comes out of finding a practice and becoming more mindful is that you do become more aware of other people, more aware of their feelings, a desire to be kinder to others, more generous, more compassionate, all those things. And so, taking the time to develop yourself actually gives you more ability to interact with others in a kind, loving, and generous way, and also with good boundaries, which is also an important thing for everybody.

Host

37:46

Emily and Cathy also discussed some of the secondary benefits of mindfulness that they typically see with others.

Emily

37:53

I’m just thinking of one example. A participant said the other day in the MENTOR class, she said, “My brother was taking me to a doctor’s appointment, and a car pulled out in front of him. And he got very upset and angry about that. And she did not. And he was like, ‘Well, why aren’t you upset about this? Come join me and be upset with me.’ And she was like, ‘It’s no big deal. You know, things happen. We move through them. We don’t have to get all emotional about them.'” So, I guess what I would say is we’re less reactive. We’re less reactive to life’s circumstances, which actually gives you a lot more choices as to how you show up in life for yourself and others. So, less reactivity would be one benefit that I see.

Cathy

39:02

There’s a lot of research on the potential benefits of meditation or mindfulness practice. And some of them are physiological, [like] less stress. It can have beneficial effects on lowering pain or the perception of pain or management of pain. There’s overall health in these brain changes that Emily talked about, where people’s brains show up as calmer and smoother brain waves. So, there’s a lot of health and feeling good kind of benefits that can potentially come from just engaging. It doesn’t have to be [that you] go somewhere for six months and contemplate. It can be a little bit [that] can take you pretty far if you stick with it.

Emily

40:14

That reminded me of one other thing in that scenario I gave with the car cutting that person off. When that person got upset about that, that created some emotions around it for that individual which relates to stress and anxiety, which is not healthy for our bodies to undergo chronic stress and anxiety. We’re all going to have bouts of stress. We’re human. But mindfulness helps us to move away from chronic stress or chronically being emotionally engaged or upset or anxious much of the time. Many people live their lives in that state. So, mindfulness helps us to move away from that chronic state of stress to more rest, restore, attend and befriend. Which in turn helps our health because we don’t have those emotions that we would otherwise have.

Cathy

41:33

And Emily, on that one, we sure get along better with other people when we’re less reactive and manage our emotions better. And that tends to promote a lot better relationships. And being able to be more clear [for] yourself about where you are with things in a kind and loving way can also be something that really helps us with our relationships.

Host

42:07

We wanted to know if you should stick to a schedule for mindfulness or if it should be when you feel like you need it.

Emily

42:13

I don’t know if the science is clear on whether 20 minutes of meditation in the morning versus several small mindful pauses during the day leads to better benefits. I don’t think we know that exactly. I think we do know, though, that consistency, no matter the length of it, just the consistency of the practice is beneficial. And also doing this practice when things are rocking along pretty well in your life, will help you because your brain will remember “Oh I know how to navigate this because I’ve been doing it.” So, when you do get in those rocky challenging times in your life, it’ll be a habit for you already and so you’ll be able to ride that wave, be more resilient, come back to balance, and ground quicker and easier than if you had not been practicing when things were going along pretty good.

Cathy

43:37

Yeah, I think part of it is people are just wired differently. Some people find that it’s really helpful to have a very… they like structure, they enjoy it, it works for them. There [are] others of, let’s say us, who don’t find structure and routine to be quite as fulfilling as some people do. And so, I always want to encourage people to not let the structure be a barrier. It’s a journey and the more important thing is to stick with it. And what I’ve found is that some people find that in the morning, if they get up and sit for, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, that it makes their whole day go better. Other people find that if they try to do that, they’re just mad at themselves all day because they didn’t get it done. And that’s not helpful. So really, finding what works for you. And there [are] many, many different ways to experiment with that, and if you think about it as an experiment — What works for me for where I am right now? — what we know is it’ll change over time. My own practice tends to come sometimes in longer periods, but a lot of it’s before I get up in the morning, before I even get out of bed, I have a practice that I do most mornings. But sometimes I don’t. Then, at night, one of the things I try to remember as I’m getting ready to fall asleep is to think over my day. To remember what I’m grateful for for that day, to be aware, to be in my body. And sometimes all that’s a few minutes and sometimes it takes some time to go over [and] review my day. I’m going to go back to the beginning. We’re all human. We spend an awful lot of time beating ourselves up and that’s not productive. I mean, obviously, learning better habits, being sorry when we make mistakes or hurt people or whatever are important things to learn to do. But if you’re just constantly beating yourself up about it, that’s not really getting you anywhere. So, I’ll go back to rule number one about being kind to yourself as being the groundwork for developing a meditation practice. And if you don’t do anything else that’s the one to start with.

Host

46:43

Here are Emily and Cathy’s final thoughts.

Emily

46:47

I would just say, I’ve heard it said mindfulness is a thousand new beginnings. And so, every time we return to the present moment, that’s a new beginning. And it really is a moment-to-moment practice. I mean, you can be in the present moment one second and then pulled away forever by the news, by something on your phone [or] social media. And it can carry you…it can hijack you and your emotions can be hijacked, and your thoughts can be hijacked. And now you’re in this alternate reality, thinking about and worrying about things that haven’t happened and probably won’t happen. So like Cathy said, be kind to yourself. If you practice some and then you get away from it, it’s always there for you, always available, always accessible. You just start over. Just begin again and come back to the present moment.

Cathy

47:54

Yeah, and drop all the expectations around it. My first teacher was fond of saying the only reason to meditate is to meditate. And the truth is the benefits kind of sneak up on you. So, I mean, sometimes I guess people have these huge events of enlightenment but that’s not very common. Usually what happens is you get involved in the practice and one day you notice that you didn’t get mad when somebody cut you off in traffic and it’s like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Something goes wrong and you aren’t reactive about it. That’s really what we’re looking for over time. You just do the work in your own way, in your own time. When you forget, and you will, come back. And then over time, what happens is you start to experience yourself in the world in a much more peaceful, easy and kind way. And that’s why we do it.

Host

49:12

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Health and Everything Else. We’ll provide a link with show notes, including full transcripts, links and more, in the podcast description.

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